Jay Boykin (00:01.573)
Well, hello everyone and welcome back to Just Human. And in this space, we explore what it means to live, to lead and to love with purpose. I am your host, Jay Boykin. So glad that you're here. I'm really excited about today's episode. It's a special one. So as you may or may not know, May is Mental Health Awareness Month.
And we're going to be diving into a topic that touches all of us, whether or not we want to talk about it or not. But mental health is, it isn't just something that we deal with when things go wrong. It's really a crucial part of how we show up every day, whether it's in our work, in our relationships, and just how we feel about ourselves. And so to help us unpack
all of this today. I am super honored to be joined by someone who's actually been a big part of my personal journey and who brings a wealth of real world wisdom and experience to this conversation. So Don Swan, how are you?
Dawn Swan (01:14.062)
Hey, Jay, I'm good. I'm so happy to be here with you and a tad nervous. I was just thinking about the fact that it's the Just Human, right? Just Human, that's the name. I was like, this is the perfect place for me because I am just human and I am just showing up with a little bit of nerves and a little bit of excitement, which oddly enough, those two emotions feel very similar, know, excited and nervous. So I'm happy to be here and excited.
Jay Boykin (01:24.829)
It is. It is.
Jay Boykin (01:38.917)
Yeah, well, we're
Well, I'm glad that you're here. Don't be nervous. It's gonna, we're just gonna have a conversation. It's gonna be fun. And I really appreciate you taking time out of your, your busy schedule to, to hang out with us. you know, Dawn, you've got a ton of acronyms and education and all of these great things that, go behind your name and your title. but tell us a little bit about.
your background and maybe what even led you to get into what you're doing.
Dawn Swan (02:15.254)
Yeah, for sure. That's funny. I don't feel like I have a ton of acronyms compared to other people in my field. I don't have very many, but the ones that I have mean a lot to me. The things that I've been able to study and that have helped me learn more about human functioning and learn more about myself. I am so grateful for those. But yeah, my story, let's see my background. I grew up
in the Caribbean. My mom is from the Bahamas. My dad is from South Georgia. So I grew up with this interesting like Southern Caribbean hybrid culture, which makes me a lot of who I am today. And my father is and was a minister, a pastor. So I grew up from my earliest days, the daughter of a preacher man.
Jay Boykin (02:52.007)
Right.
Dawn Swan (03:06.056)
and grew up in church as surrounded by people all the time. It was a pretty big congregation. And so we were always surrounded by people. And I think growing up in that context is one of the things that drew me to this line of work, right? Like there was always a strong value on relationship, whether that was relationship with God, relationship with people. And so I became good with people. And so, you know, as I grew up, I realized that that was a strength of mine and something I was interested in.
always curious about relationships and what made them healthy or not healthy or work or not work. And so that kind of followed me, you know, growing up in the church as I went through school, you know, trying to figure out what do I want to do with my life, you know, as we all do kind of ask, well, what are my talents? What am I good at? What am I interested in? And so all of those questions led me to people. So I knew I wanted to work with people.
I went into college thinking I was either gonna be a teacher or a therapist the two big, you know people professions There's many more but and I actually started out. I did a very small pre internship with a high school English teacher and I enjoyed the kids but then I saw her like leave in class that day with a stack of papers and I was like, what are you doing? What he she's like, I have to take these home and grade these all tonight and I thought
Jay Boykin (04:05.127)
Okay.
Dawn Swan (04:28.494)
I like, that every night? She's like, yeah, almost every night. And I thought, okay, no, that's not the kind of life I want. Cause I knew I wanted like a work life balance. I didn't want my work to always follow me home. So at that point I pivoted to a psychology degree and then finished my bachelor's in that. And then got a few jobs in the psychology field that you can get with a bachelor's degree, which were some pretty intense, pretty difficult high stress jobs. so.
I almost considered leaving the field altogether, but then realized, you know what? No, I still want to work with people, but in a more one-on-one context. so realized I needed to go to grad school to do that. Got my master's and then began my journey of working, you know, with individuals and couples. And that kind of took me to where I am today. There's a lot more to this story, but I don't want to keep going on and on about that unless you have other questions, but.
Jay Boykin (05:03.965)
Okay.
Jay Boykin (05:20.893)
No, well thank you for that. No, that is great. I don't know that I realized that you were from the Bahamas, that you were born in the Bahamas.
Dawn Swan (05:32.664)
So was actually, it's a technicality. was born in Florida, but moved to the Bahamas when I was eight months old. So essentially from eight months to 16 years old, I lived in the Bahamas and then moved to South Georgia, which was a whole thing.
Jay Boykin (05:38.256)
Okay, okay.
Wow.
Jay Boykin (05:47.183)
Okay, well that's a different conversation. We'll have to talk about the Bahamas because I love the Bahamas as well. So Don, mental health is, it's so important and I'm curious, you know, why do you think that talking about mental health today is maybe even more important than it's ever been?
Dawn Swan (05:59.95)
Thank you.
Dawn Swan (06:11.672)
So I love that question, Jay, and I was reflecting on that, you know, as you sent me some of these questions. Can I ask, could we bump that question after we talk about kind of what is mental health? Because I think as we talk about what is positive mental health, it'll make more sense why we need that more than ever. Is that okay?
Jay Boykin (06:25.252)
Yeah, well...
Jay Boykin (06:30.693)
Let's do it. You run the show, Don. I love it. I love it. You know that. So let's talk about it. What is mental health? You go right into it.
Dawn Swan (06:38.594)
That's cool. Thank you so much. Yeah, I just think it'll make more sense. you know, I think for most of us, we're probably more familiar with what poor mental health looks like than like if somebody asked you to talk about what does poor mental health look like, it might might be easier than what is good mental health look like. And that can be kind of a habit, I think, in a lot of domains, we talk about, you know, the problem we want to get rid of, but what's the optimal that we want to retain or cultivate, right?
So I remember years ago being at a conference for counselors and there was a neuroscientist who was presenting, his name's Dan Siegel. And he was the first person I heard who explained mental health kind of in this way that made a lot of sense to me. And he talked about optimal mental health being characterized by flexibility, psychological flexibility and adaptability.
Like that we can pivot, we can handle different emotions that come up in different ways. So this idea of flexibility and adaptability and then emotional resilience. Now those are kind of big words and I know you asked me to of break this down for somebody who might not be familiar, but keep those in mind. And I love the psychological flexibility. One, I love metaphors. You know this about me and like object lessons.
And to explain the flexibility, I'm going to show you. You guys have all seen these little guys in front of car dealerships. You know, call them the wavy tube guy, right? So the wavy tube guy is a great, is a great, a great metaphor for flexibility, right? So groundedness and flexibility, like he's got the weight that keeps him on the ground.
Jay Boykin (08:14.991)
Yeah, yeah.
Jay Boykin (08:24.253)
Okay.
Dawn Swan (08:30.146)
Right? But as life comes at him, as the winds come at him, he can bend and pivot and move and be flexible. He's not rigid. Like if we put a cement version or some kind of a metal version of this guy out there in the winds, you know, eventually strong enough winds come over and he's going to topple. But he's strong because he's flexible. He's grounded and flexible.
Jay Boykin (08:47.879)
Right.
Jay Boykin (08:52.261)
love that. That's a great analogy. I love it.
Dawn Swan (08:56.142)
Isn't that great? yeah, so really that psychological flexibility, I also love the phrase of like, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Right? Like if you only have kind of one way of coping, one way of moving through the world, that's more of what we call like that, like rigidity. And really a sign of psychological health is that flexibility. Right? So does that kind of make sense?
Jay Boykin (09:06.972)
Right.
Jay Boykin (09:21.881)
It really does. actually, I like that a lot in that, you know, really in our, in our best state, being in a place where we can handle some of the things that life's going to throw at us and we can be flexible and adaptable. Those were, you know, a couple of great words that I think are really many people can resonate with.
Dawn Swan (09:48.174)
Yeah, yeah. And so I know it's kind of a broad thought, but yeah, that's one marker. Like if you want to say, you know, we're looking for mental health, optimal mental health, that flexibility and adaptability is one sign. Another sign is like an emotional resilience. And so this, this piece, I sometimes think of like, you know, we're all born with the same innate set of human emotions that we're given for good reason. Like emotions are basically just,
signals like emotional signals that we put out into the world or that our body sends to us to let us know that we need a certain response, right? If we're sad, we need comfort. If we're scared, we need protection or reassurance. If we're angry, it's an emotion that says, I need to stand up for myself, or I need to protect or set a boundary. Like, so we're all born with like this full crayon box of emotions, right? But
Of course, depending on what context we grow up in, we may watch the people around us and realize like, certain emotions aren't really welcome here. And so maybe if my anger causes a problem, I'm going to want to pull that red crayon out of the crayon box and like try to do life without that red crayon. But ultimately, we need all of those emotions for a reason. And so.
So we come into the world with this crayon box, we get different messages about what emotions are and are not acceptable and that thus begins the struggle with like emotional health, mental health. So that's a big thing. And again, I'm just, I'm going to go through a bunch of metaphors because you asked me to kind of make it relatable. The emotional resilience. I thought of that song this morning, you know, do you remember this song that I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never going to get me down.
Jay Boykin (11:36.562)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember it.
Dawn Swan (11:37.262)
I had to look it up. It's by the I think the band is called Chumbawumba, which is hilarious. But anyway, but it made me think of that like emotional resilience, like do we have the ability? First of all, do we feel safe and allowed to feel all of our emotions? Right. And then when they come up, can we kind of ride the waves of that? Right.
So if we feel, you know, people that have that emotional resilience, which is kind of this other marker of health, they can, first of all, they can allow all the crayons to be present in the box. They don't have to get rid of any of them, which is really complicated and hard. How do you get to that place, right? That's a big thing. But then when these emotions do come up in them, they're good surfers.
They're good. They can ride that wave. You know, that wave of sadness may come up and instead of trying to fight it off or push it away, they can just kind of hop on that surfboard and ride that wave out because emotions will come and go. They will resolve. There's actually some research that shows that emotions will come and go as quickly as about 90 seconds, 60 to 90 seconds. If we don't fight them.
So if we can hop on that wave and allow ourselves to ride that wave, they'll naturally resolve. But the problem is if those emotions haven't been allowed in our life, in our history, or they've become threatening or scary, or we've become unfamiliar with them, because we threw the crayon behind the, you know, behind the playground.
then we get nervous and we can't just allow that wave to ride it out. We start fighting and then it becomes more like we're getting caught in a riptide, right? That emotion starts to come up and instead of jumping on the board and riding it out, we start to fight. And then the more we resist, what we resist persists. So if you've ever gotten caught in a riptide, right? Or seen someone or known someone, the worst thing you can do is fight it because, you know, it'll just...
Jay Boykin (13:39.421)
Okay.
Jay Boykin (13:47.239)
Right.
Dawn Swan (13:49.166)
keep you stuck and eventually you'll wear out and go under. But to let go and just ride that wave can be scary. So that's a lot. I've just said a lot. Let me pause.
Jay Boykin (13:58.929)
I love, yeah, no, but that was great. I wanna ask you this. So you talked about the crayon box and you talked about, you might have someone who takes a certain emotion, a certain crayon and you throw it away because they don't wanna use that one. Is it possible to have a situation where you've got...
Dawn Swan (14:07.182)
Mm-hmm.
Jay Boykin (14:24.185)
a crayon that's overused and so it's it's wearing down because you just that's the one that you default to whether it's anger or sat whatever the case may be but it's overused.
Dawn Swan (14:37.294)
Absolutely. I love it. I love that you're interacting with the metaphor because it might break down at some point, but no, you're right on. that is, I think that would be a very common occurrence with people that are struggling with their mental health, right? Is like in the act of wanting to avoid an emotion or overuse a different emotion. Like anger is a great example, right? Like most people would rather feel angry than feel vulnerable.
And so if we feel sad or if we feel scared, we might want to convert that into anger because anger feels more safe. It feels safer, more powerful. And so maybe that anger crayon is the one they just really want to color with all the time. Right. But what we know is that those those crayons we try to throw behind the playground or behind the toy box, they never really go away. They're still there. They're just underground. And when they arise, we try to fight it with anger. Right. And then
And then that's going to get us stuck in that riptide because the sadness or the fear or whatever's under that anger is still there. And it's kind of all part of that kind of riptide, right? And the anger is not going to help us necessarily get out of that no matter how hard we try. So, no, that's a great point. I love that image. The overused crayon.
Jay Boykin (15:49.264)
Yeah.
Jay Boykin (15:55.613)
Well, I'm just leaning on what you set up. You set it up really well. So, you know.
Dawn Swan (16:03.458)
Well, and can I drop one other thought, Jay? Because as you said that, you know, that because the other side also, right, a lot of people are afraid of anger, right? Anger has become scary in their life. If they've been abused or maybe they had a caregiver who was very angry, they might really try to avoid anger. And so you might see somebody who shows up and presents with a lot of depression. And so they kind of may be somebody who kind of over you that sadness.
Jay Boykin (16:06.653)
Please.
Dawn Swan (16:32.076)
and that helplessness kind of becomes the crayon that they're more familiar with. And so I wanted to point that out because, you know, in our culture, it's easy to see people who over rely on anger, but the opposite can be true as well, right? People that are very passive that have not learned how to connect to their anger. Because again, we need anger. We need anger to help us stand up for ourselves, right? But if that was never allowed or safe,
then we can fall into that other side, right? Where we over rely on the sadness and the helplessness and don't find our power. And either one leaves us out of balance.
Jay Boykin (17:11.517)
So is it fair to say continuing to lean on this metaphor is that ultimately what we want to be able to do in our optimal mental health state is to create a picture that is very beautiful with all of our emotional crayons, that we don't want it to just be one thing, we want to be able to balance it out and understand
that when certain things happen that I can use my, it's okay to be sad or to feel sad. It's okay to have anger as long as all of these things stay within healthy boundaries.
Dawn Swan (17:54.07)
Yes, I love it. love it. Optimal well-being would look like a full crayon box, a picture with all the colors, right? You can kind of feel that as you think about that metaphor. Like to me, it feels like a fully alive, fully vibrant human being, right? With all the colors.
Jay Boykin (18:13.671)
I love it.
Dawn Swan (18:14.538)
Yeah, yeah. And so again, it's really complicated and it's, it's very understandable to when you meet a person. That's one of my favorite parts of my job is like, if somebody doesn't want to color with that red crayon, you better believe there's a good reason. So don't judge them for it. Just get curious. Right? Why is that red crayon? If it's anger? Why is that? Why is that difficult for you? What comes up when you think about leaning into your anger? Right? Or, or why is sadness?
what comes up, right? So there's good reasons why people don't want to use certain crayons. And that's what I love about what I get to do is I just get to be curious and help people understand why they want to toss certain colors. And then ultimately, as they understand that, then to begin the journey back of integrating all of the colors and becoming more vibrant.
Jay Boykin (19:02.589)
That's amazing. So Don, easing back into the other question. So part of what I think about and part of what I address in this entire just human philosophy that I'm leaning into is that right now, more than ever, our world feels really divided.
It seems like we tend to lead with labels and titles and a lot of things that are more meant to divide us than they are to bring us together. But, you know, as, as human beings, that's the thing that we all have in common to start with that. And the fact that we've got our, our wellbeing, both physical and mental that we have to take care of.
But it does feel like today that there's still a bit of stigma around mental health, but it's probably more important than it's ever been to have this conversation around mental health.
Dawn Swan (20:18.974)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. So bringing back that question that I kind of that I asked you to hold back on. Yeah, I because and the reason you're right like like the division and Rigidity is the word that you know, again, the opposite of flexibility is rigidity and I think as we look at our country and we see all of the division like it's so easy to see that right like
Jay Boykin (20:36.636)
Right.
Dawn Swan (20:42.656)
I'm in this team over here and I'm rigid and I'm in this team over here and I'm rigid and we're divided and we're just banging heads and there's not what's missing in a lot of ways in my view is this, right? Like we don't have that ability to be flexible in the way of like I can hold my view and my feelings about things and I can honor them at the same time as I can listen to you and try to be curious about you even if I disagree.
Right there, that requires a great deal of flexibility and adaptability. so again, yes, like, but if we don't have that ability within our own being, right, like to hold that complexity within ourself, to hold that I can be angry and sad at the same time, I can be scared and embarrassed.
Jay Boykin (21:16.337)
Yes.
Dawn Swan (21:35.584)
and joyful at the same time, right? I can be nervous about this podcast and excited at the same. If we can't hold these opposing views that exist within us, it's going to make it very difficult for us to hold these opposing views that exist in our culture and have the flexibility and the psychological and emotional, right, adaptability that we need to come together and listen to one another.
Jay Boykin (21:51.975)
Right.
Jay Boykin (22:01.647)
Yeah, and you said something there. A good part of this, it reminds me of, I know that you've seen this, but there are those pictures. The one that comes to mind immediately is one that, depending on your perception, and that's the word that I want to lean in on is perception. In this picture, you might see an old woman or you might see the young woman. And even though
Dawn Swan (22:26.594)
Mm-hmm.
Jay Boykin (22:31.927)
you might see something different than I do when you first look at that. It doesn't mean that one of us is right and one of us is wrong. We just have a different perception and our worldviews can help to define some of that. But the beauty of that perception is that both can exist. And I think that being in a situation where we can recognize, you said this beautifully,
Dawn Swan (22:37.56)
Mm-hmm.
Jay Boykin (22:59.779)
You can still hold on to those things that are important to you while at the same time recognizing that other people might have a different perspective, a different lived experience, and that doesn't mean that theirs is wrong. It just means that theirs is different.
Dawn Swan (23:19.054)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I think, Jay, this is good. You're clarifying another characteristic of mental health, right? Is the ability to hold two opposing truths simultaneously, to hold that complexity, is a sign of maturity and a sign of mental health, I think. When we become afraid...
we become rigid, right? Like I think a lot of times in that rigidity is a fear that if I open myself up to my truth and your truth at the same time, like what's going to happen? Like, I don't know who that's going to go. But, but that is just the truth of our world is that most often there are multiple truths happening at the same time, even within our being. Right? And so if we can't come to terms with that, it's going to be really hard to do that in the world with other people, you know?
So, so many times in counseling, that's one of the things, you know, ask somebody how you feel. And I'll often say it's okay to have more than one, right? Because usually we have dueling parts of us. One part of me feels really excited about this. The other part of me is really scared or, one part of it, yeah, these two truths. And so, so yeah, I mean, it seems obvious why we need that in our world, right? Because with the division,
Jay Boykin (24:14.493)
So good, yeah.
Jay Boykin (24:23.037)
Right.
Jay Boykin (24:34.365)
Yeah.
Dawn Swan (24:42.51)
that's really tearing us apart in so many ways, right? If we could be flexible, if we could listen without feeling threatened, without feeling that need to go into protect mode or criticize mode or defend mode, right?
Jay Boykin (24:58.525)
Yeah, no, that's beautiful stuff. Don, you mentioned counseling. And so I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. I think that some people who have not experienced any sort of counseling or therapy before might have a certain misconception that you gotta walk in, lay on the couch and...
Dawn Swan (25:27.66)
Love Love you.
Jay Boykin (25:27.697)
that type of thing. you know, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about mental health and about therapy?
Dawn Swan (25:35.724)
Yeah, I love this question. I'm probably the most excited to talk about this one. Well, the other one too. The last one we did. But so let me preface this by saying there are so many different kinds of therapists out there.
Right? Like there's so many different approaches to counseling and there's so many different kinds of therapists. So one of the things I always tell people is look, you're going to encounter so many different therapists with different views and different approaches. Like if you're looking for a therapist for the first time, interview them. Like literally at most of them will give you a 15 minute free consultation call where you can pop on zoom and just get a feel.
for who they are and ask them a few questions. What is your view of human growth? What is your view of how people change? So I just want to preface with that because I'm going to tell you my view of what counseling is and the most helpful view of counseling in my opinion. But there are lots of therapists that approach therapy in different ways. So shop around is what I tell people and find somebody that their view and their approach feels congruent with what you believe and what you need. So.
Jay Boykin (26:23.165)
Okay.
Jay Boykin (26:46.001)
Yeah, I love that you mentioned that, you know, just like people would, you know, they would interview a caregiver for their kids or another family member, or they would interview someone who's doing work around their house. I think that your advice there to, you know, not one size fits all. So talk to a few until you find someone that you think feels good.
Dawn Swan (27:00.535)
Yes.
Dawn Swan (27:09.768)
Exactly. Yeah. you and a lot of people tell me I don't even know what kind of questions to ask. Right. But just start with that. What's your approach? How do you think people grow and change? Let them tell you a little and then listen to that gut to write that feeling of like this does this your body will let you know if this feels like a safe person for you. If this feels like somebody you can open up with so
So I don't want to spend a lot of time on that, but yeah, I really think that's important. my view, misconceptions about counseling, know, growing up when I was young and even, you know, starting to study psychology. Yeah, I think the prevailing view, even in my own mind was you go to the expert and the expert is going to tell you what you need to do to feel better or to change whatever behavior you want to change, right?
you know, they're the expert, they have the information and they're going to impart that to you and you're going to take that information, use it and then your problems are going to be fixed. Well, I remember hearing someone say one time, they're like, look, lack of information is not the problem. Like we can walk into any bookstore or any app book app. I mean, the information, the books on self help, how to change how to improve mental health. mean, it's not an information problem.
Jay Boykin (28:24.039)
Okay.
Dawn Swan (28:24.362)
Most for the most part. I mean, I'm not going to say never Like sometimes there really are people that that need you know, some advice. I'm not saying never but I'm saying overall So what I believe is that people people have information They try to use it to change a problem or change themselves, but they run into barriers It's like as I'm trying to put this information into practice
It's not working. I'm getting blocked. And so what I have come to believe is that the way that I can be most helpful as a therapist is to listen to people talk about what have you already tried? Where do you find yourself getting stuck? Okay, what happens when you get stuck? And then really my job becomes kind of outline the process like a process consultant. Like tell me the steps that you go through when you're trying to get out of this emotional moment, right?
Jay Boykin (29:15.517)
Okay.
Dawn Swan (29:21.568)
And they tell and then I'm curious and I asked the questions. when you try to get over this obstacle, these are the thoughts that come up for you. These are the feeling. What do you what do you do when those thoughts and feelings come up? well I sit there and I argue with myself for a little while but eventually I start to get overwhelmed and then I go grab a drink because I just can't take it anymore. And then okay and then what happens after that? So really.
What I see myself, a big part of my role is just to help people see and understand their process and where they're getting stuck.
Jay Boykin (29:51.997)
Okay.
Dawn Swan (29:55.712)
And then once we can see where we're getting stuck, there's just more curiosity there around that block. Well, I wonder when you hit that block, right? And then we go deeper. So really, before I say too much else, I think one of the key roles is helping people to see where they get stuck, see what the blocks are, and then there's a process for removing those blocks. And then people can keep moving forward with the information and the path that they probably already know they need to take. How's that listening?
Jay Boykin (30:22.449)
Yeah, that sounds great. That's actually very helpful. I'm curious as you talk about this process that you follow to help people and understanding that there are, there's other opinions and other types of therapy, but I'm curious your thoughts here. So,
You know, again, for my audience that's listening, thank you for joining. whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast provider, we're joined today by Dawn Swan who, and we're talking about mental health, because may is mental health awareness month. So Dawn, let's say that you have an individual who's listening today and maybe they're questioning.
questioning whether or not they're in that good mental health place or not. How does someone take that first step and even begin to recognize that maybe getting some assistance from someone like you could be beneficial?
Dawn Swan (31:39.662)
Mm hmm. That's a great question. Well, you know, I think, you know, just to pivot off of that last thing we were discussing there, you know, if you're finding yourself feeling stuck,
Like maybe there's something you've been trying to change in your life. know, lot of people come in because it's a relationship that they really value, a relationship they care about. I would say that brings in probably the majority of the clients I see, because there's a relationship that's suffering. And because that relationship is suffering, you know, the person's suffering because we're relational beings. so if there's a problem, either personally or relationally that you've noticed has been around for a while and you've been...
hoping for it to improve and you've been, most people are trying really hard to make things better already and they're just hitting a wall. So if you notice that there's a problem like that, I think it'd be a great time to kind of invite an outside perspective, right? To look in with you. One of my favorite quotes is when you're inside the jar, you can't read the label.
Jay Boykin (32:45.373)
Hmm.
Dawn Swan (32:46.296)
So if you've been inside the jar working really, really hard to improve or change something and you're not seeing any movement, might be just time to invite an outside set of eyes that can look from a different angle. So that would be one thing. And then I think there's, you know, many, many markers that we notice when people are starting to struggle, you know, those things like, you know, sleep disturbance. You're sleeping a lot more, sleeping a lot less, just not sleeping well.
appetite changes, right? These are kind of the individual symptoms people will often start to see. You know, a lot of anxiety. mean, anxiety is pervasive in our culture, but we're all moving so fast that sometimes we just think it's normal, you know, that anxiety. But oftentimes when we're alone, we're like, gosh, I just can't ever seem to like slow things down on the inside, even when I want to.
Jay Boykin (33:37.693)
Right.
Dawn Swan (33:40.11)
You know, if you're not enjoying things in your life the way that you used to, things that used to bring you joy are kind of like, meh, I don't know if I really want to do that anymore. Or if you're noticing you're withdrawing from relationships and starting to just wanting to be alone and being more isolated more than you used to be, that can be a mark or two that something's starting to brew under the surface.
Jay Boykin (34:04.571)
Wow, that's good, good counsel. You know, it's interesting, you know, when you and I first had the opportunity to meet many years ago in talking about anxiety, anxiety was something that I, at that time, had struggled with the majority of my life. To be honest with you, I thought that it was just normal.
For me to feel that way. I thought that that was my normal place and As I fast forward to where I am today and and that anxiety is no longer a Daily constant feeling it's not that I don't get anxious about certain things, but it's just not there all the time it is amazing how good I feel and
I think back being a man and being a black man, in my community there are a lot of stigmas around those mental health things and people default to, well, you you're crazy if you're seeing a therapist, that type of thing. So, I mean, why do you think that some of these stigmas
still exist and especially for men.
Dawn Swan (35:33.918)
boy. It's just so many reasons, I, you know, yeah, just depending on, you know, there's just layers of context that people grow up in, right? Like you just named like, you know, your gender, your race, you know, the environment we grew up in, what region of the country we grew up in, did we grow up in the south, did we grow up in the Midwest or, you know, East Coast, like,
Context really matters. And so that's one of the things I think with every unique person that walks into my office I'm always like I want to know tell me about your context Tell me and tell me about the messages that those different contexts sent you about emotion Right because really the messaging that we the programming the messaging that we received about emotion sticks with us
And it can stick with us for our whole life. And you're really right. mean, I do often say to the men that come into my office is like, I'm sorry, like you've been dealt a really crappy hand, because basically what your life has taught you is suck it up. Right? Like only feel these certain colors like you're working with half a crayon box because, you know, throw out fear, let's throw out sadness. That's well, what else do you have to rely on? Right?
Jay Boykin (36:58.129)
Right.
Dawn Swan (36:59.002)
you've got anxiety, you've got anger, you know, that are acceptable and praised, right? And, you know, looking at our culture now, right? Yeah, the overabundance of those emotions that we see that are not helping things. But yeah, there really just is, I think we've come a long way in starting to loosen and shift some of that stigma, but we've got a long ways to go. And especially, I think you were mentioning
when we were first chatting today, people that are 50 and up, they're still carrying the messaging of a generation that didn't really know a lot of what we know now about mental health. They just didn't know. And that's another thing I think that's really important is people that grew up in families who were very dismissive of emotions or cultures, context.
Jay Boykin (37:40.85)
Right.
Dawn Swan (37:52.654)
You know, lot of times those people were doing the best they could with what they had and they just didn't know the harm that they were doing by telling little boys to suck it up, wipe it off and just get on with it. Right. So for men, it is true. mean, everybody has a hard time with this, but I do think men often have a harder time because, you know, we haven't celebrated or honored the strength that is in vulnerability.
Jay Boykin (38:02.459)
Right. Right.
Dawn Swan (38:20.302)
So we really are rewriting that definition of what it means to be a strong man in our culture. It's still being rewritten.
Jay Boykin (38:30.991)
Yeah, you know, you really are creating a great segue there because I, as I have continued to read a lot of books on leadership and read a lot of books of some of these individuals who have created some great companies with some amazing cultures. There's something that is becoming
more common, think, is those leaders being more vulnerable and recognizing the fact that they don't have to have all the answers and they don't have to be perfect all the time. it's that invulnerability that can almost make us stronger that, you know, people are drawn to those stories and people are drawn to
individuals that are willing to show their imperfections and, and, you know, people want to work for those type of people. And I think it's a great thing. I really do think that those types of things are changing for our entire society, but definitely for men, you know, guys who are out there listening, men who are out there listening, you don't have to be that, that stoic.
Dawn Swan (39:41.806)
Thank you.
Jay Boykin (39:58.343)
tough guy like the movie characters that you might see, that it's okay to admit that you're sad, you're upset about something, something's bothering you, and be willing to share that with those around you. That invulnerability can actually be a strength.
Dawn Swan (40:17.174)
Yeah, absolutely, Jay. It's what makes us bond as a species is vulnerability is actually like the path to bonding relationally. But again, I do want to honor the fact that it is so hard. Even as we're sitting here saying this, I can imagine people being like, yeah, but you don't get it. If I'm vulnerable in this context, right?
it's not going to go well for me. Or if I'm even vulnerable with my partner as a man, right? Sometimes women get scared. Are you going to be strong for me? Or maybe that wife or that partner hasn't gotten in touch with her own vulnerability. so there are, I mean, it is hard. So I think really looking for safe contexts where you can practice vulnerability and know that your vulnerability will be met with care and support.
Because it's risky. If you stick your neck out there in the wrong context, right, you might get that same message again that like, no, this is not wanted. So it's a risky move and it's so important. So I would just say like really find those spaces where vulnerability is safe to practice.
Jay Boykin (41:23.921)
Right.
Dawn Swan (41:35.53)
Maybe you have one friend or one person that you know, like, I can show up and be vulnerable here. They're not going to judge me. And if you don't have any of those spaces in your personal life, maybe that is where even finding a therapist that values vulnerability and say, hey, I have a hard time with this. Is this a safe space for me to practice this here with you?
Jay Boykin (41:43.122)
Yeah.
Dawn Swan (41:57.504)
And there are some really cool groups, some men's groups, you know, that I've learned about that have the same value. There's one called Everyman that I learned of recently. And the leader is an emotionally focused therapist, which is the same modality that I use. And he has an online group of men that want to grow stronger through embracing their vulnerability. So there are safe spaces to practice this. But I just appreciate it. It can be risky.
in the wrong context, right? That's why we don't do it.
Jay Boykin (42:26.289)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Don, I want to go off script a little bit, but I think you got this. a lot of the work that I'm doing here lately is with small business owners. And these individuals are people who are extremely talented at whatever their craft
Dawn Swan (42:35.438)
Yeah.
Jay Boykin (42:56.293)
is. But many times these small business owners are wearing 50 different hats at one time. You know, they're they're having to be the leader and the HR person and they've they've got to deal with the accountant, they've got to deal with all of these different things. And it's stressful. It is super stressful for them. And so I'm wondering for those
high performing professionals, those small business owners, those leaders. This sort of goes back to what we were talking about before, but just how important is it for them to make sure that their mental health is taken care of just like their physical health, their financial health, all of these different things that go along with their business.
These folks as leaders, that's a key part of what they need to take care of as well, right?
Dawn Swan (44:00.318)
Mm-hmm. man Absolutely, Jay. I'm just like I'm letting it hit me, you know kind of as you were saying them Just I can feel the pressure right of being the one who is responsible for so many different things so many different people You know as you're saying they're they're connecting with this person and that person is so much on their shoulders and You know to show up and to be responsible
requires so much energy mentally, emotionally, physically. And I feel like I'm just beating the same drum here, but I think it's the drum. It's the important drum to beat is like when you're giving that much, right? Is there a time and a place where you just get to be not responsible?
to admit that maybe I'm overwhelmed, I'm overworked, like where is that space for you, right? As this high functioning person where you can just receive care and be taken care of by yourself and by someone else.
Right? Because I mean, it's amazing. Like you said, these high functioning professionals, you look, step back and admire the heck out of them and what they do. But, but again, back to your podcast title, they're just human. Right? And all humans are going to hit a point where they're maxed out and they need to be filled back up.
So, so I think that twofold thing, right? How do you fill yourself back up? How do you care for yourself? Do you know what works for you to rejuvenate to recharge? What is that? Is that, you know, is that yoga for me? I love yoga because I can show up in that classroom and I don't have to lead or guide the process like I do with my clients. I just literally surrender and I let that person just tell me what to do for a change. Right. And I just follow along. It's feels
Dawn Swan (45:58.086)
so good. But what are those things for for these high functioning professionals who carry a lot of stress that let you shift into a different mode where you can be cared for, you can be guided, you can receive, somebody can help you the way you help your employees. Like do you have that space?
Jay Boykin (46:16.389)
Right.
Dawn Swan (46:19.51)
And it's so closely connected to people, right? We need to be able to do these things for ourselves, but we also, learn how to do it well for ourselves as we receive it from others. So people who grew up in a family where they received a lot of care, they received a lot of comfort, they received a lot of support, they end up being people who can comfort themselves, care for themselves and support themselves well.
If you did not grow up in an environment where you received a lot of care, comfort and support, you might struggle to know how to do that for yourself. So I would just say to those people, know, just, just be sure that you have a space where you can shift into a different mode on a, on a semi-regular basis, right? And that's going to be different for everyone, but you're probably going to need it at least weekly. would say more free a couple of times a week, where you get to receive.
Jay Boykin (46:53.285)
Right. Right.
Jay Boykin (47:13.213)
I really liked that Don and you sort of, you gave a little bit of a clue as to the other question that was a little bit off script where I was going. But you know, for someone like yourself, you are a caregiver professionally and you are a caregiver personally because you're a mom. And so you've got folks that are relying on you and that you're taking care of.
constantly. And so it's got to be super important for you to make sure that you're taking care of yourself so that you can show up well for those people that that depend upon you. And so you mentioned your yoga, and that's one of one of your things. And so, you know, how are you how are you making sure that you're taking care of yourself so that you can show up as the as the best dawn every single day?
Dawn Swan (48:11.604)
Yeah, so such a good question, Jay. Yeah, because and I don't always I don't always keep it in balance, right? Sometimes I know my body starts to give me clues that I'm not doing enough of that. But but yeah, I do have a few different therapists who are mentors and friends that I meet with on a regular basis where I can just show up and say, I don't know what to do. Like you said earlier, right? The best leaders are often the ones that can show up and say, I don't know.
I don't got this. Like, you know, in my room with the clients, I need to be the one who's got, I got you. I need to be able to reassure them I got you. But sometimes I don't feel like I got this and I need a place. And sometimes even with my clients to be like, I don't, I don't got this yet, but I think we'll get it, but I don't got it right now. But yeah, for sure. I mean, I have activities like yoga that really helped me biking, but also, like I said, there's things we do alone for ourselves.
Jay Boykin (48:58.205)
Yeah, that's awesome.
Dawn Swan (49:09.942)
And then there's relational things. And I love to share with people that I have a therapist that I work with because like I said earlier, when you're in the jar, you can't read the label. I think all the best therapists have therapists in my view or have had or a large portion of their life because it applies to us too. Right. And so I have had the most amazing therapists over the years, but particular in the, in these last
Jay Boykin (49:28.05)
Yeah.
Dawn Swan (49:39.694)
two, three years, I've gone through a big life transition and that therapist, her name is Barbara, and she has allowed me to look at my crayon box, to find connection with some of the emotions that I didn't have a whole lot of connection with, to get them back in my box. And she held a lot of space for me to help me learn how to tolerate some of these emotions that I didn't ride the waves very well with certain emotions. I got caught in the riptide.
So she sat with me and we invited those emotions to come together and she showed me that I could hold space with her and I wasn't gonna drown and Through that process. I became more skilled at being able to allow that emotion to show up in me Right. We learn how to tolerate the strong emotions by doing it together first And then that confidence kind of transfers and then eventually we can do it by ourselves
Jay Boykin (50:09.213)
Okay.
Jay Boykin (50:36.893)
Gotcha.
Dawn Swan (50:37.592)
So it's this very integrated dance of we need others to become strong and independent. And in our culture, right, we wanna be strong and independent, not without, but without this part, right? But it's not how we're built biologically, it's not how we're built to function. And so I have lots of people that I lean on that helped me to stay strong and...
Jay Boykin (50:50.471)
Yeah.
Dawn Swan (51:01.28)
And I borrow their strength and it eventually becomes part of me. So when they're not around, I can kind of even draw on that in their absence.
Jay Boykin (51:08.573)
Yeah, that's all. That's great stuff, Don. So we're coming close to the end here, but I want to ask you one more question that is off script. And if it doesn't go well, I'll just have my editor edit it out. So have you seen, there's a show on Apple TV called
Dawn Swan (51:26.478)
Thank you. I can take a risk.
Jay Boykin (51:38.349)
shrinking that's got Harrison Ford in it. Have you seen it? Okay. Okay. I was hoping that that was going to be your response because I, I, we have watched the show as well. And, the thing that I really enjoy about the show, and then I would love to get your perspective on it, is that, so for those that have not seen the show, without spoiling too much. So
Dawn Swan (51:39.442)
I've seen every episode and I love it.
Dawn Swan (51:48.645)
yeah!
Jay Boykin (52:08.317)
The Harrison Ford plays, he's a therapist. I don't know if he's a psychologist, psychiatrist, I'm not sure, but he's like the leader of this firm, this counseling firm. And the other main character whose name I'm, it's escaping me right now, but he lost his wife.
And Harrison Ford's character is going through some health issues and then there's relationship issues. There's, you know, issues with children. There's all of these different things. And as these folks, these counselors, these therapists are helping their patients, they're also helping each other.
go through life and it really goes back to one of the things that you were saying is that we all need someone. And so they really touch on a lot of different topics in that show, be it the physical health, mental health, relationships, substance abuse, and they do it in such a way as to really make it feel very human and that it's not taboo. so...
I'm glad that it's a show that you love. I'm curious to get your thoughts on the broader topic of that show.
Dawn Swan (53:34.946)
Yeah,
Dawn Swan (53:40.118)
Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love it. It's one of my favorite shows. It just normalizes therapists as real people. Like again, I just love the name of your podcast. It just keeps coming up in my mind. He didn't tell me to plug this over and over, but it's like true. Therapists are just human. Thank you. No, it's just so good because we are.
Jay Boykin (54:00.521)
I still have your Venmo, I'll just send you some Venmo out.
Dawn Swan (54:09.024)
just human. you know, there, there's a book, I can't remember the author, but it's like the wounded healer. Is that Henry now and maybe, but at any rate, it's the title, just the wounded healer is like, that's, that's where we're all at, right? We're all wounded. And we can all be a source of healing for each other. And I think that's what this particular show just embodies. It just highlights the woundedness or the just the humanity.
Jay Boykin (54:17.533)
I have to look it up.
Dawn Swan (54:37.334)
the humanity of these people that are stepping into this role as like a healer and they do facilitate a lot of beautiful healing simultaneously as they're struggling with their own brokenness, their own neededness, right? And so that for me is just what I believe about therapists. And I think it makes therapy so much more accessible when you can walk in with that view, right? Again,
Jay Boykin (54:37.404)
Yes.
Dawn Swan (55:04.052)
this isn't a perfect person, this is somebody who's outside the jar, they're outside of my jar enough that they can have some perspective and help me see, but when they're inside their own jar they struggle to see also. And so you know in the show you watch them help each other at some point Harrison Ford is counseling you know Jimmy and helping him see and at some points Jimmy's helping Harrison Ford see his blind spots and then
You know, so this this beautiful paradox of like, you don't need an expert to fix you, you just need a fellow human who's outside the jar that has has wisdom and insight to share. But just remembering that they also need the same thing when they're in their hard stuck places. And you're normal. And to me, if we can embrace that, then you can walk into a counseling office, knowing that it's like I'm not the broken one showing up here to be fixed.
We are all wounded, we are all imperfect, we're all just human, and we're showing up to help walk each other home.
Jay Boykin (56:01.063)
Yeah.
Jay Boykin (56:09.585)
Yeah, that's, that's so good. So I highly recommend. So, you know, this is not Apple TV is not sponsoring my podcast, but shameless plug. If you want to, I'm, I'm open to that, you know, just reach out hashtag just human, but, Dawn, it's been so great to have you on the, on the episode today. I feel like we could, we could talk for a long time. I do want to.
Dawn Swan (56:17.388)
Yeah. It should be.
Jay Boykin (56:40.025)
Again, just say thank you for being a part of my own personal journey and just taking the time to sharing some of your perspectives with my audience today.
Dawn Swan (56:50.456)
Thank you so much, Jay. It's been a long time since I've, this is my first podcast ever, actually, to be honest. And so it's a great opportunity. I'm just honored that you would ask and I have so much respect for you and what you're doing here on your podcast. So thank you for allowing me to be a part and to share some of these ideas.
Jay Boykin (57:09.041)
No, was really great. So for my audience here with Just Human, thank you so much for being a part of the show. Thank you for taking time to watch or listen to this episode. Just remember that the whole point of this podcast is just to focus on the fact that we are all human beings, flaws and all, we're all trying to...
Find our purpose, live our best lives, support our families, whatever the case may be. But the more that we can do it together, the more that we can support each other, the better. So as Don alluded to earlier, find those folks, find that community. And if you're someone who is even feeling a little bit like you might need to talk to someone, don't let...
any stigmas or fears or stereotypes keep you from doing that. Reach out to someone even if you start with some of the online resources that are available, please do that. So again, thank you for joining us on Just Human. Don, thank you for being with us and we will see you on the next episode. Thanks everybody.
Dawn Swan (58:27.822)
Thank you.
