Jay Boykin (00:01.864)
And welcome to Just Human. This is the podcast that discusses various topics, including things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion. We look at personal growth, leadership, culture, all sorts of different things. And today we're gonna lean in on the topic of masculinity. I'm your host, Jay Boykin. So happy that you took time out of your day to listen.
If you are watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast provider, please feel free to subscribe, leave a comment, definitely want the feedback so that we can make the show better. Now, as we start to think about masculinity, there are a ton of opinions and ideas about what masculinity means.
The formal definition is qualities or attributes regarded as characteristics of men or boys. And I feel that this is a very interesting and relevant topic because masculinity and the definition of that has really evolved. It's changed quite a bit. And as we look at it today, I think that the more that we try to understand it,
I think that it's going to give us the opportunity to create environments that are definitely more open and definitely more inclusive. But in order to understand the evolution of masculinity, we definitely have to talk about the past. We have to think about where masculinity came from. And when you think about the history and you go many, years into our past,
there were a lot of things that were attributed to masculinity or male traits that were roles like protector or provider and warrior. And in those days, in that time, men were expected to fight and hunt and defend their communities. And...
Jay Boykin (02:16.12)
Today, things look a lot different. For me, defending my community means being on the HOA, which I'm on, but that looks a lot different. I also think about the fact that in those old days, whether you're looking at the times when everyone was walking around with a sword or in the old west when everyone had a gun or they were riding a horse, those were some of the traits that we attributed to
men and to masculinity. It's funny because I have friends today, I'm thinking about the hunting aspect of it. I have friends today that are big hunters and they will go out and hunt, track, shoot, kill, whatever it is they happen to be hunting and they will take it home and clean it and dress it and do all of these different things.
that again is not me. And a lot of my friends, I have other friends who that's not a part of what they do either. I tell you for me, hunting is going to my favorite butcher and I point at the piece of meat that I want and they wrap it up and I get to take it home and cook it. as I mentioned, masculinity has definitely evolved over time. Some of that evolution,
started to take place during the industrial revolution and men went from being hunter gatherers to really being focused on providing, making a living. You just got to go work. And that was the primary responsibility was to go out and to make money, bring home for the family.
What's interesting for me, so I am in my late 50s, I'm 58, I'll celebrate my 59th birthday in November. And so being born in the 60s, raised in the 70s, my dad, great man, he definitely embodied a lot of these traits that I was looking at. mean, during that time, there were these distinct roles for men.
Jay Boykin (04:42.794)
Again, men were primarily going to work and they were working primarily with other men. There were not a lot of women in the workplace depending on where you were. They worked hard, they smoked cigarettes, they drank hard, and then they came home. Women during that time when I was a kid primarily stayed at home. They focused on the house, they focused on the kids. Again, these are...
generalizations. This was not necessarily what happened for everybody, but this is what I primarily experienced. so things like feelings for men, that was not something that you were encouraged to do was to express your feelings. Men were expected to be strong and stoic and really emotionally restrained. So
back in the time that men were warriors and hunter gatherers, maybe that was necessary for survival. But again, going back to my own father, my father was a great example of this. He worked very, very hard to support our household, to support our family, but he also was not one who showed a lot of emotion. He was generally very stoic and...
if there were some emotions, it could have been maybe frustration or anger. But my dad went to work, he came home, he watched the news, he paid the bills and rinse and repeat. He did that every day as he took care of the family. And it was not one of those, it wasn't typically something that you would do asking dad how he felt.
You probably didn't wanna know how he felt. He might show you how he felt. You might feel something that you weren't really asking for. And again, I'm not saying that my dad was bad. He was great. But this was the time. This was how men were really raised and trained to be. This is what he was taught. And so I grew up watching this.
Jay Boykin (07:01.194)
And I thought that this is what it meant to be a man. And so I modeled myself after him. I went to school, I focused on getting good grades, and I focused on trying to keep my emotions in check. Now will tell you, I was terrible at that part. And I'm gonna come back to that more in a minute. But I know a lot of men who can relate to...
this feeling of trying to live up to expectations and really feeling like it was a heavy burden. These traditional roles that we were taught, they created these pretty rigid stereotypes. And again, it was encouraged for men to suppress your emotions. You were supposed to be really...
void of any of those feelings because it was going to it really was like a sign of weakness and those were the norms and I think that there's still confusion on that even today as we think about the topic of masculinity there's a term that I've been hearing more and more lately it's called toxic masculinity and it's the way that men are trained and socially
pressure to behave and a lot of times it's not where they're comfortable being and so you'll see some of the core tenets of that being you got to be tough and you've got to be powerful and sometimes that power shows up in how much money you have or the toys that you have and you have to have all of these very non-feminine traits and this can come across as very off-putting.
very toxic to many, people. And I think that these traits at a certain time, they helped to define certain societal structures back in the day. think that individually for men, it really limited personal growth, especially as it relates to emotional expression. Men who talked about their feelings,
Jay Boykin (09:21.152)
men who talked about their emotions, you were considered soft. And I won't even mention some of the other derogatory terms that were used at that time if you were someone who showed those emotions and maybe even cried at certain things. So now as we begin to fast forward a little bit into the present state of masculinity, it's much, much different today.
I still think that it's undergoing a transformation, but it's definitely different today. Modern masculinity really challenges a lot of these old gender stereotypes. So again, you think about the workplace. You have significantly evolving gender roles in the workplace. Those lines are very much blurred between
what was considered men's work and women's work. That is not really as much of a thing. Do you have certain roles that are more predominantly dominated by men or women? Absolutely. But those lines are definitely blurred now. And I think that that's a good thing. I remember when I was younger, a male nurse was not a thing.
Now it's very, very commonplace. And I think that's great. Also thinking about doctors or even seeing you go on a construction site and seeing women who are on a road crew or on a construction site. That's much more common today than it was back in the days when I was growing up. I think that
There's also an aspect of leadership that is much different. I think that in the old days, a lot of leadership was about who could yell the loudest and showing that power and that dominance. I think that leadership today, and we'll get into this more in future episodes. And again, thank you for listening. Again, hit the subscribe button. Leave me some comments on what you think about this and give me your ideas about masculinity.
Jay Boykin (11:44.212)
leadership is more about empathy and communication and collaboration. And I think that these traits were sidelined back in the day, and there was more of an emphasis on aggression and dominance. And I think that there are times even today in corporate America where those things may still rear their ugly head.
But I definitely believe that people are looking for different traits in their leader. They're looking for someone who is a great listener, someone who is a great communicator, and someone who can show some empathy. And I think that these things are really marks of outstanding leadership. I think that today men are more encouraged to embrace these qualities that
in the past were considered unmasculine. think that it's okay for men to show more vulnerability and talk about their feelings and really develop those friendships with, especially with other men that are less about, hey, let's just talk about sports and drink beer and have some deeper relationships where you get into talking about your feelings. As I mentioned earlier, I
tried to model my father and follow in his footsteps and I focused a lot on work and I focused on trying to keep those emotions bottled up and that absolutely didn't work for me. I struggled very significantly with anxiety and having emotional outburst at times and it made my relationships very, very
difficult. Those feelings were going to come out one way or another. They just didn't come out in healthy ways. And so now when I started focusing on being more open, being willing to be more vulnerable at home with my friends, when I started thinking about focusing on my mental health, doing things like talking to a therapist,
Jay Boykin (14:09.824)
things got so much better. And we'll have an episode in the future where we talk about mental health. There are still today so many stigmas as it relates to mental health, but I believe that it is becoming more and more commonplace for people to be willing to seek the help that they might need and even talk about the fact that they are getting that help.
I think that the changes that we're going through today regarding masculinity, again, it's not without their challenges. I think that because men struggle with certain societal expectations on how men are supposed to behave, those older, more traditional views, and you counter that with some of the ways that we're really seeing
become more acceptable. think that men are struggling with that. Statistics back this up that men are facing higher rates of anxiety and depression because they're being challenged with these norms. They're trying to walk that line. And so I do want to say this. want to emphasize this. This episode is not sponsored by anyone. So I can give you my honest
opinion on this. If you are someone who is struggling with anxiety or other aspects of your mental health, please consider talking to somebody. There are some great options out there now, especially online options that you can take advantage of. Something like a better help is something that I've personally used. And so I would encourage anyone who
maybe feeling some pressure, maybe feeling some challenges to go out and take a look at that and find someone. And these online options are great because you have the opportunity to speak with a trained professional, but you get to do it from the security of your own home. So if going out and finding a traditional in office therapist is something that
Jay Boykin (16:34.55)
you may not be comfortable with, at least start examining some of the online options.
So we've talked a bit about the history and the evolving state of masculinity. We've talked a bit about toxic masculinity. What's the other side of that? What does positive masculinity look like? I think that it's about finding that balance. I think that positive masculinity means that it's okay for men to express their emotions and
embrace traits like empathy and collaboration and open communication without fear of judgment. I think that we are finding ways to redefine strength. I don't think that strength always has to mean how much power you have and physical strength. I think that it's about other things. think that it's being again willing to be open and vulnerable and supportive.
And so as we talk about positive masculinity, I think that we can look at that and measure that against some of those old male stereotypes. So for example, I think that it was expected that men were going to avoid seeking help, even medical attention or
mental health support. That was what was expected. You didn't need a doctor. But today, asking for help when it's needed, going and seeing your doctors, even preventive is very much encouraged. In the old days, not showing weakness, you have to present yourself as tough all the time. Now it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to show a wide range of
Jay Boykin (18:39.434)
emotions, you can be sad, you can say that you're afraid and it's okay to be kind and it's even okay to say that you don't know something. I remember it felt like I always had to have the answer for everything even when I knew that I didn't and so I think that it's okay to say hey you know what I have no idea what the answer is to that but let's figure out how we're going to do it together. I think that
developing healthy relationship skills. again, learning how to be a good active listener is important. Learning how to communicate without judgment and seeking out that help. And I think that here's the other thing. When I was younger, my male friends were people that I hung out with, I played sports with, I talked about sports with.
but I didn't open up about my challenges and the things that I was struggling with. Now today, I've got men in my life that I can have these very candid, vulnerable conversations. I can talk about the fact that I'm really, really upset about something. I can talk about the fact that I am anxious about something. I can talk about the fact that I took an L.
today, I lost today in a certain area, but here's how I'm going to try to do better. Those are extremely important support systems that we need to have in our life.
Going back to the topic of emotions, I used to think that keeping my emotions in check was a strength.
Jay Boykin (20:29.378)
But I think that I went down the wrong path. Once I started opening up with my wife, opening up with my brother, being more candid with my best friend about my fears, about my frustrations, the things that were challenging me, I realized that being vulnerable actually made me closer to these individuals, especially with my wife.
And it made me feel stronger. So I think that suppressing feelings, again, I'm not saying that you want to go around and have emotional outbursts all the time. That's not the healthy expression that I'm talking about. But I do believe that having healthy mechanisms for discussing how you're feeling in a safe
place gives us a means of controlling those emotions. Again, as I mentioned earlier, those emotions are going to come out. Even if we're trying to bottle them up, they're just likely to come out in extremely unhealthy ways. So find those people that you can have in your life that you can have those type of communications with. I also believe that suffering in silence
is absolutely the wrong thing to do. So again, if you are listening to this and you are someone who is focused on keeping those things in, you are suffering in silence, please find someone that you can talk to, that you can open up with. I think that you're gonna feel so much better if you have someone that you can share those things with.
So at this point in this episode, we've talked about the history of masculinity. We've talked about how it has evolved up to this point. We've talked about toxic masculinity. We've talked about positive masculinity. But as we start to wrap things up, I want to talk about
Jay Boykin (22:52.556)
the future of masculinity and where we think things are going to go over the coming years. I think that masculinity is going to continue to evolve. think that the younger generations are leading the way. They are really rejecting these traditional rigid gender norms and they are advocates for a broader definition and a broader understanding.
of what it means to be a man. They are much more accepting of more fluid gender identities and men are being increasingly encouraged to embrace emotional intelligence as a part of their core strengths. And so I think that the future trends are going to include gender fluidity.
and breaking away from those traditional binary notions of gender. And whether or not that is something that you believe in or something that you support, it's not going anywhere. There are individuals out there who do not identify as, you know, the traditional roles that we have had up to this point. And I think that that is absolutely okay.
however they want to live. I think that representation in the media, on television, is going to change things. There are more diverse portrayals of men in movies and in TV and in books. I will tell you that my wife and I recently watched a show called Schitt's Creek.
And when it first started, I didn't think that this would be a show that I would enjoy. But as it went on, I really, really embraced that. I enjoyed the fact that this show and the writers associated with the show were not ashamed to show some very non-traditional gender roles. It showed women in a more
Jay Boykin (25:15.628)
dominant and maybe more successful type role. It showed the main father figure in this show. A lot of times today it is very, it's popular to make men either look like we are super dominant. We've got to be the superhero or we're bumbling idiots like Al Bundy or Homer Simpson.
I love the fact that this show was very good about the father figure and even in his failings, he was able to still be a strong husband and a strong father figure and even become a strong figure in the community. I like the fact that speaking of fluid gender identities,
the sun in the show was, they were unashamedly embracing the fact that he is a gay man and that relationship. And they weren't trying to explain it away. It just was what it was in the show. And I think that more of that is going to continue to change the way that we view these things. Again, I don't want to get into politics. I don't want to argue it. just,
recognize the fact that this is the world that we live in today and I am not gonna fight it. I'm going to embrace the fact that we have a very diverse world that we live in. I also think that there's going to be a redefinition of what success looks like. I think that success will no longer be focused on wealth.
and power, I think it's also going to look at happiness. It's going to look at how healthy you are, your mental health, and how fulfilled you are. And I think that those definitions focused on wealth and power and dominance, those are dinosaurs and those need to go away.
Jay Boykin (27:41.302)
I'm very encouraged by the fact that I've seen many younger men in my family be able to express themselves in ways that I would have never imagined when I was their age and be able to talk very openly about their mental health, to be able to talk very openly about their sexuality. I think that it is very, very inspiring and it makes me feel very hopeful about the future of masculinity. So.
Question for you. How have you seen the younger generation challenge the norms that that you grew up with? I I would love to see your comments on on that
So how can men embrace this evolution of masculinity? Things are going to change whether you want to get on board with it or not. It's much like technology. Whether you are a fan of the changes in technology, that's not gonna stop the fact that technology is gonna continue to evolve. Same thing with masculinity. So what are some things that we can do?
Perhaps you are a man that's in your 40s or 50s or older and you're trying to navigate the way that things are changing and how masculinity is evolving. I think that here's some steps that you can look at. So first of all, I believe that you can reflect on your personal beliefs. What does masculinity mean to you? And can you challenge any of those old outdated stereotypes that might impact
how you behave and might impact how you come across to others. Number two, I believe that we can practice emotional openness. Don't be afraid to share how you feel with people that you trust and with your loved ones. Number three, foster strong relationships. I...
Jay Boykin (29:41.356)
believe that if we prioritize those relationships and those friendships and in those relationships if we are practicing proper communication, active listening, showing empathy, I think especially with our close male friends, I believe that that's gonna be very, very impactful in your life. Number four, be an ally for equality.
I think that when you have the opportunity to challenge some of these traditional outdated masculinity definitions, I think that when we challenge those things, I think that we become a true ally and we really help things to evolve a little bit. And finally, just continue to engage in continuous learning. I think that the more things that we read, the more things that we
watch and educate ourselves on the more dialogues that we have. Even things like this podcast are challenging the way that we've done things up until now. So the evolution of masculinity, it is a journey. It is not something where we're going to just arrive and it's going to be done. It's going to be one of constant growth and reflection and transformation.
I think that the redefinition of masculinity, really allows men to break free from these old stereotypes and to really be more authentic and to show a level of openness and vulnerability. think that this shift not only benefits men, but it enhances
all of our relationships, it enhances things in the workplace, at home, in our communities, and I think that our society will benefit as we continue to challenge these old outdated stereotypes. So again, as we continue to explore topics like this, let's have the conversations, let's support each other. I appreciate you.
Jay Boykin (32:02.336)
listening to just human podcasts. Coming up soon, we're going to have a very detailed conversation about DNI and the fact that that has become almost weaponized in our current culture. And I'm going to ask the question, does DNI still matter? Is it still relevant today? So thank you for joining.
Again, my name is Jay Boykin and I look forward to having you join me on future episodes of Just Human.
